Hoole Community Centre Public Meeting

frankp57By
Dec-3-2022
Hoole Community Centre, Up And Coming Events
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Have a look at the image below. The image shows details of a public meeting to be held at Hoole Community Centre, next Monday at 7pm. The image popped up earlier today on my social media feeds. As well as an article about it appearing in the local Hoole Roundabout magazine in the December edition I received today. Bear with me while I look for an online version of the article. Nope it isn’t online yet. But when it is, this is where you will find it. This month November is the latest one online so I guess the December one is also going to be very soon. So, Hoole Community Centre Public Meeting? What’s that all about?

Hoole Community Centre Public Meeting

As the article in the Hoole Roundabout mentions – as does the image above – the Hoole Community Centre is up for sale. To some people that message may not resonate particularly loudly. But for so many others, just listen to those very loud alarm bells.

Regular readers of my blog may remember that I am a big fan of the Hoole Community Centre. I have written a few blog posts about it along the way. To be more specific, blog posts about the great events and the excellent services provided so diligently, professionally and enthusiastically by the close knit team of volunteers.

I have been known to take an elderly neighbour of mine to the Over 55 Club on a few occasions on a Wednesday morning. For instance, like on this occasion HERE. Every Wednesday is always a warmly received, popular event with very often, up to 50 or more attendees thoroughly enjoying themselves. The meetings are held between 10am and 12:30pm and culminates in a great value, top quality lunch for all attendees.

Hoole Community Centre Public Meeting – A Brief Rundown

Before next Monday, I will see if I can obtain some more information. As it is however, I have the details as brought to our attention in the Hoole Roundabout article. Keep checking that link above and have a read of the online version.

But, to give you an idea as to what it is all about.

The building is owned by All Saints Church (ASC).
They have listed it for sale. The asking price is in the region of £775,000.
The community centre is rented by trustees of the Hoole Community Development Trust (HCDT). An annual rental of £40,000 per annum is the amount ASC want. However, this amount is too much for HCDT.
HCDT state that the building was gifted to the community and that the church registered the title erroneously.
ASC state that it is “committed to playing its part in seeing the community in Hoole flourish.”
The vicar of ASC moved to Hoole in September 2021 and in that time he has been pleased to see how the church has supported the community.
The building is designated as an Asset of Community Value (ACV) and the Council has been notified by ASC of its intention to sell.
Any sale needs to comply with Charity Commission rules.
HCDT would like to buy the building but don’t have the funds as yet.
HCDT continue to rent the premises from ASC during the sales process.

There may be bits I’ve omitted but I think the above bullet points provides a reasonable background.

Reading the article a bit more closely a few points jump off the page for me. Points that intrigue me.

To Quote An Old Saying

One of the points is that old saying of, “if it isn’t broken then why fix it?” I’m talking about the concept of the usage of the building and not necessarily specific repairs to the building.

As I said above, one of the very, very popular services provided by the current set up is the Over 55 Club on a Wednesday morning. Using this one event as an example and given the success of it and ASC’s commitment to support the community, what exactly needs to be fixed in order to address any flaws in this service? In other words, and to relate it to the old saying, “what part of it is broken and what needs to be fixed?”

No doubt, some sort of due diligence has been; will be; or should be carried out by the church. For instance, as maintaining a commitment to the local community is of paramount importance, then what indications have the local community given to suggest new ideas are needed? Have they been asked? Just to clarify, the “they” in this instance refers to those people that matter the most – the local community.

I’m guessing the vicar, who moved to the local community just over a year ago, has identified a different need for the local community. A need that hasn’t been previously identified for so many, many years by those born and raised in the area. There must have been a need identified for an alternative though as why else would there be a need to sell it in order to “carry on the local commitment.”

How’s This For An Idea?

How about this as an idea. As everyone is committed to the well being of the community, why don’t the HCDT invite the vicar to one of the Over 55 Club sessions? Or one of the other popular events or activities. But let’s use the Over 55 Club as an example. At this session, the vicar can address the members and he can gauge what the community want. And he can explain his own alternative plans.

Let’s don’t wait for the building to be sold and everything to happen as a total shock to the community. Is there any problem with exercising a bit of transparency at this stage? I’m sure the vicar will welcome such an opportunity.

Hoole Community Centre Public Meeting – Other Thoughts

Quite a few other thoughts pop into my head while reading the article in Hoole Roundabout. I won’t highlight them all in this article but just briefly give some a mention. The thing to bear in mind here, is that these thoughts are in no way expert opinions, or expert questions. They are merely my own thoughts that pop into my little brain while reading the article. And as you will well know, quite often interpretation may sometimes be a bit skewed when reading something in isolation. Answers or responses to my thoughts may already exist, so I’ll dig a bit deeper when I get the chance. But anyway, here’s a few of my initial thoughts gleaned while reading the Hoole Roundabout article.

The first mention is, to me, a big $64,000 question. In the article, this comment from HCDT was flashing in big neon lights for me. The comment was, “the building was gifted to the community and then the church registered the title in our view erroneously. No money has exchanged hands and now the church are selling it to the highest bidder.”

Where to start with this.

Building Ownership

Firstly, “the building was gifted to the community.” When was this exactly? And is there paperwork to support this ‘transaction?’ This statement suggests that the building was gifted for the whole good of the whole community. As straightforward and as simple as that.

Or, maybe flip the question another way. Do the church actually own the building? I’m no property expert but, at this stage, I am assuming that they do actually have, or have access to, the title deeds to the building. In other words, there is some definitive paperwork in place to confirm their ownership? Or that the gift was solely for their benefit?

Another reason to ask such a question sits alongside the additional comment of, “no money has changed hands.”

This suggests therefore that from the initial gift, no one has actually bought or sold it? Am I reading that right?

Yes I’m aware that there may well be a whole bunch of legal documents and red tape forms etc that may well muddy the waters and confuse things. Or otherwise. They may make things clearer? I wouldn’t know as I’ve not seen any documents whatsoever regarding this. And, as I say, I’m no expert. But let’s put legalities to one side for the moment. And let’s all try and strip it down as simple as we can.

Bear with me.

Hoole Community Centre Public Meeting – The Original Gift

Let’s just focus on the four words, “gifted to the community.” I don’t know when it was gifted, or who gifted it. But, if we can get to the fundamentals of why it was gifted and what were their intentions, then doesn’t that solve most, or all, of the issues and debates? Yes, there may well be a whole load of legal documents and red tape between then and now that will muddy the waters. But isn’t that just what it does – muddy the waters?

One other key word to focus on in those four mentioned above – community. So, if we’ve established that the gift was for all the community, then shouldn’t it be the community who decides what happens to THEIR gift? And not just one organisation within that community?

As I mentioned them above, why not ask the Over 55 Club members what they want? Isn’t that quite a simple thing to do?

Hoole Community Centre Public Meeting – Musical Cheques

Another example that stood out for me from the article was what HCDT called “robbing Peter to pay Paul.” In this sense, they meant that in order for them to raise the necessary finances to buy the premises then they will need to make requests to other charities. Which would then deny those other charities being able to use those funds on their own charities.

However, in not exactly the same fashion but a similar point. ASC said in the article, that they “would love to see the church continue and expand this work.” – from the proceeds of the sale. With ‘this work’ by the way meaning supporting the community. Some quite specific and worthy activities were mentioned.

Here’s the thing I don’t get though. Aren’t, or couldn’t, all those same activities be managed and housed in the already existing building? Here’s the musical cheques bit. By selling the building, thereby ceasing all the activities the HCDT currently fund and manage but then spending the proceeds of the sale to replace all or some of those activities with “their own” activities, then isn’t that just moving funds, or moving funding around?

Mind you, there is a spin-off question from the above, simplistic thought.

Do ASC Already Have A Buyer In Mind?

I hope I can put this down in writing clearly enough that isn’t confusing. Reading the article it is clear that there have been discussions over some considerable time between HCDT and ASC. What is also clear is that both parties have made some very worthwhile contributions to the community and both hope to be able to continue to do so.

What isn’t clear to me however – given that keyword of ‘community’ – is why the building needs to be sold to continue the good work of both parties? And should they be identified as two separate parties? In my simple mind and looking beyond the detail of the quotes in the article, wouldn’t the community be best served if everyone worked together? Instead of pulling in different directions.

Which brings me onto the spin-off question. Is it possible that ASC are already aware of other interested possible buyers?

And a spin-off from the spin-off. Is there a possibility that if this is the case then these potential new owners may not necessarily have the best intentions of the community at heart? Again, looking in from the outside, it would be a bit of a stretch I would imagine to find any other parties more committed to the local community outside of HCDT and ASC. I could be wrong, but if I was a betting man and all that.

Best For The Community – Who Decides?

This sub-heading encapsulates quite a lot in terms of meaning I reckon. What is best for the community and who decides? To understand that a bit more, how do you decide what is a community? One simple definition goes along in this way:

“a unified body of individuals: such as. : the people with common interests living in a particular area. broadly : the area itself. the problems of a large community. : a group of people with a common characteristic or interest living together within a larger society.”

Note the opening statement in bold – “a unified body of individuals.” As an outsider looking in, as I’m sure many of you are as well, I’m asking myself the question, who should decide what is best for the community? To my mind, the answer is quite simple. The answer is, the community itself isn’t it?

And let’s not forget. The building is already enjoying the designated status of being classed as an Asset of Community Value (ACV). So, boxes are already ticked as to its usage.

No doubt there are many files in existence on this subject. But how’s about this for a suggestion. At the next meeting between the two parties, leave all those files in the office and, effectively, start with a blank canvas.

For each point on the agenda, keep it simple. And what I include in ‘simplicity’ is putting all legalities etc to one side. At least for the time being.

And in response to each agenda topic raised, the following is noted on a blank sheet of paper.

a/ What would the gift donators want?

b/ How does this effect the community?

b/ What’s best for the community?

Response:

Ask the Community.

Rinse and repeat.

Hopefully Not Shades Of Deja Vu?

Given that to many people, the solutions to what is best for the community lies within the community, I hope we are not seeing a bit of deja vu here. What I mean by that is, we are not at the cusp of another Ship Victory or Red House situation?

Let me clarify, there is nothing to suggest that we are. But just in case and playing devil’s advocate, it is hoped that all future use of the building will remain for the good of the community. One snippet from one of the quotes in the article also intrigued me. And suggested the possibility of a future of non community related activities. It was made by ASC. They said, “it is encouraging offers from organisations, including HCDT, that could enable the continuing use of all or part of the former school for community activities.”

The two words, “could” and “part” speak volumes for me. Does that seem to suggest that the future plans for the site are already known? I know there are legal requirements (there’s that word ‘legal’ again) that need to be complied with before any sale. But wasn’t the Ship Victory a listed building and wasn’t there many of legitimate objections to the decision to demolish the Red House? All and any considerations for the communities that those two buildings served were ignored. Are we even possibly going to have to contend with anything similar?

Or are we going to find that a more sensible, community driven approach is going to be followed?

Watch this space. Or better still, pop along to the meeting next Monday at the Hoole Community Centre.

Hoole Community Centre Public Meeting Summary Of This Post

I’m not going to repeat the points I’ve already made. But, the one thing I think that needs to be kept in mind is that, in short, it seems that the building was donated to the community for the benefit of the community. I can see that as a t-shirt slogan, or printed on the side of a mug. “Donated To The Community For The Community.”

I’m sure you will all have your own views on the subject. From my own point of view and coming from the understanding that both HCDT and ASC are focused on the community, the answers to my mind lie within. Both for the immediate issues and going forward. I don’t know why and I hope I’m wrong, but I can’t help getting thoughts of the Ship Victory and the Red House in my mind. Let’s hope anything similar to these scenarios are avoided.

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